Forum dedicated to increasing awareness of green living through beneficial dialogue.

In simple terms—I save the one that will be easiest to save without putting my own life at risk. When I say we place “equal” value on all life I use the term as an adjective not a verb. Or more clearly “Having the requisite qualities or resources to meet a task”. That is not to say that a dog can do a man’s job but that a dog meets those requirements to hold and perform its station in life and that like its human counterpart the absence of the animal would affect many facets of life outside of its own. I, like you would probably not rescue either one for the simple fact that the instinctual reaction is to preserve one’s own life above that of another. However if the threat of eminent danger were not so great as to trigger the preservation instinct that all animals including human beings have I would most likely attempt to save them both at the same time. In the event that I could not I would save the one that would put me in the least amount of harms way. This does not mean that I value either one less than the other nor does it mean that I value my own life over that of another, what it does mean is that as an animal I have instinctual actions and reactions that cannot be overridden on a whim. I would probably sit and watch helplessly in horror as the two lives were lost. But I would mourn the loss of both lives equally having no connection to either one to produce a feeling of extreme emotional attachment. When I drive down the road and I see dead animals I feel a twinge of grief and guilt just as I do when I hear about a person who has died in a shooting or a car accident. I mourn them both equally in that there is one less living thing that held a specific purpose on this planet.
With respect to my respect for all life and my respect for you in particular thus the insults I have lobbed in your direction I say this. I hold with high regard or think highly of your life and the lives of every other living thing on this planet I however do not honor you or hold you in high esteem (with delighted approval or liking) Do I respect you? That all depends on the definition you want to use. You have demonstrated that you are the same as all other Ultra Conservative Christian Republicans that I have encountered and there for not high on the approval list.

Now I realize that you said "your" child which is in and of itself a loaded question because of the emotional bond that is created between the two people. I also noticed that you did not say "your" dog instead you state "a dog" in an effort to limit the emotional attachment. If it were my child and my dog who would I try to save? My answer remains the same. Do not think me a fool or a sucker Short I am resolved in my beliefs just as you are resolved in yours.

Urban says "You have demonstrated that you are the same as all other Ultra Conservative Christian Republicans that I have encountered and there for not high on the approval list."

Shortfuses says "So there you have it,you do not hold to your values,I am lesser because I don't live or believe like you do,and I am not equal to you. I do not look down my nose at your beliefs,I just disagree,I make no classifaction as to your lifestyle,because it is different,I believe that your ideals are nuts though, I feel sorry for your children,you no more cherish them than a worm."

Urban says " Do not think me a fool or a sucker Short I am resolved in my beliefs just as you are resolved in yours."
Shortfuses says "Your words have defined who you are."

Urban say "In simple terms—I save the one that will be easiest to save without putting my own life at risk.

Urban says " However if the threat of eminent danger were not so great as to trigger the preservation instinct that all animals including human beings have I would most likely attempt to save them both at the same time. In the event that I could not I would save the one that would put me in the least amount of harms way. This does not mean that I value either one less than the other nor does it mean that I value my own life over that of another, what it does mean is that as an animal I have instinctual actions and reactions that cannot be overridden on a whim. I would probably sit and watch helplessly in horror as the two lives were lost"
"Shortfuses says" You would put a greater value on your own by doing nothing.

Let me ask the question again,it is a one word answer. "If your dog and your child are in danger,and you could "choose" to save one,which one would you save? It is not that hard of a question to answer.
You cannot answer that one word question Urban because you know if it were your child you would save him or her.

Once again short I have to tell you that I don't value my life over yours or think that I am better than you. I do however think that you are a jerk and a troll and that you will not accept what I say because it contradicts what you believe.

I answered your question. Clearly concisely and with out making the error that you hoped I would make by choosing the child over the dog. The fact of the matter is I would probably sit helplessly as they both died. Preservation of one's own life is a natural instinct and no matter what you say it can not be disputed. Now at the same time I think you should know that in the animal kingdom (which we are apart of not seperate from) All animals protect their own species before those of another. So in a life or death situation a chimpanzee would rescue the other chimpanzee over say, a lemur. A human will rescue a human. YOur little game to get me to show that I value one over the other is petty and childish. You want me to say the child to say I'm a hypocrit. That I value one species over another. Your question is loaded because you have no arguement. If it were my kid over your kid who would I rescue. How bout that as a question? how bout a dog over a shrew? Maybe a worm over a cockroach? As I said before. I would probably sit in horror and watch as they both died or I would hope for the best and visit them in the hospital. You think I am a liar, fine. But when it all comes down to it natural instinct takes precedence over personal conviction and you yourself would probably not do a damn thing. How about dealing with a topic that matters instead of weather or not I like you? If you died I would mourn your death like any other but I don't have to like you. And because I put you into a catagory of UCCR that does not mean I value our respect your right to live any less than others. No I don't think highly of Shortfuses the person. But that does not mean that I don't put equal value on your life as I do my own. I do and I would work to provide you with those things that you need to live your life with the technologies available that make everyones life easier. But I still don't like you. You have come to start fights and instigate arguements. Yet you offer no deep thoughts of your own. Gear oil and grease don't make for a very intellegent conversation.

Oh and to answer the one word question of choice that you clearly state let me say this... Instinct overrides personal choice. Not to mention the fact that a situation like this is clearly a fictitious situation and would not happen. I would not choose to save either instinct would guide me to the least dangerous. Natural instinct is to save the same member of one's own species. It is not a choice it is an instinct. I would not choose. Choice assumes that you are in control. A situation like you describe takes you out of control. You can not choose it is biologicaly impossible. End of the debate. You lose. Lets deal with real issues. Try using actual reason to develop your point.

Urban ,your shortfuse is beginning to show,and your lack of patience is wearing thin,I can tell by your last post your not having fun doing this,are you?
Imbeded in ones mine should be that human life should be saved in that circumstance. It should be as natural as your next breath,the blink of an eye,the left foot in front of the right foot.

As I stated you have a choice to save one,the dog or child which do you choose to save? you say you let your instinct take over,how sad of a choice is that,you can't even make a choice so simple as a child over a dog. that is some sick reasoning,isn't people.
I would choose to save the human,regardless of the easiest one to save. You have something that animals don't have the ability to reason, apparently you lower yourself to make yourself equal to the beasts of the field which do not have that gift,they as you state act on instinct,not reason. You also have what is called shame,have you ever seen a animal take a crap out in public? That is something that is normal for all,except animals to it right in public,and could care less,I seldom see people take a crap in public and if they do they are either intoxicated or menatly ill,they show no shame. You Urban as you state are no better than an animal,I accept your overview of yourself,however don't include all of humanity in your world of non reasoning only act on instinct type of behavior,there are many of us Conservative,non religious,religious people who don't believe that we evolved from your family line of knuckle dragging,banana peeling,butt scratching,tree swinging family line of monkeys.I hope I didn't insult you and your family. I couldn't help myself with that one you walked right into it.

I liked the other Urban who didn't get all his answers from the dictionary and quoted someone eles's work like Joe Biden.
You know I love you man,lets keep up the chatter so everyone can have something to laugh at,whether it's me or you,don't take all this to serious Urban,you have the rest of your life to learn about what we humans call reasoning,I sure you don't take a crap out in public,so you have shame, I hope.

are the unborn equal in the eyes if the enviromentalist?

in my eyes yes.

As you can see in the answers he gives there is no moral clarity,just animal instict from which to act. No foundation of life,no foundation of right or wrong just the same reaction that a animal would have,instinct. No ability to reason is what is lacking, if you ask me. The ability to reason is what seperates us from the animals. Yes I know we have fight or flight,but I am asking you to choose between saving a child or a dog. It's a one noun choice.