Forum dedicated to increasing awareness of green living through beneficial dialogue.

I think Shorty has more in common with many of us than he knows. For some reason he seems to think that just because we like to recycle and conserve that's we're all 'the enemy'.

No Brass Monkey it's not that I dislike conservation,it's I dislike the laws that conservationists want to bestowe on others on their behalf. Wholeheat made a great example of more regulation on automobiles. I have said before,"let me come into your house and set the standards that I want to set for you",I believe that your are capable of setting the satndard for yourself based on your standard of living. If you can only afford a car that is used and worth x amount of dollars and gets x amount of mph's,well that's what you can afford. Ditto with heating and cooling standards.

How about I set the standards and make it a law that "everyone must have geo thermal heating and cooling" this system is so efficent that 7,000 sq ft can be cooled or heated with about a 9 ton unit,each ton equaling about 800 sq ft vs 500 for conventional a/c. The total cost to a/c this amount of footage a month is around 155.00 dollars per month. I now mandate all of you people to have this system installed in your homes by 2010. Or else face fines and penalties and possible imprisonment up to 5 years for each offense. Isn't that what you want on big business? Fines and penalties,whats good for the goose is good for the gander...aye? That is why I dislike regulation and standards. I maybe more efficient than both of you,but I am not going to impose my standard of living on either of you and say you must meet my standard,how arrogant. The bar can always be raised,let the American people and the free market dictate what the standard is NOT THE GOVERNMENT.

Howdy Brass Monkey & Shortfuses,

I disagree with Shortfuses that people, of their own volition, or big business out of the kindness of their heart, are going to be able to make the changes that we need to improve the enviroment and overall quality of life. Big business has one simple mandate, never ending growth in size, and more importantly, in profit. In their quest to achieve size and profit, they will not make decisions that bennefit mankind, at least not intentionally. Do you honestly believe that the maker of DDT would have just kindly pulled the product out of the market. It was a hot seller, baby! Only when required to do so by law did that stop. Then what did our bennevolent big business do? They sold it to the less educated countries of the third world! How considerate of them!That is not their mandate. Look at the true mission statement of any publicly traded corporation, and it's clear that the number one goal is profit for shareholders. I am not, by the way, against proft, but am against the reluctance of most corporate entities to be true to the world at large that they co-exist in.

I also believe that the government can serve a role here. It does not have to be heavy handed, but nonetheless if laws were passed that mandated that all NEW construction had to meet ceratin base energy efficiency standards, that would be a good starting place. I heard that all new construction in israel must include a solar hot water system. An obvious choice given that Israel is in a sunny desert. I am sure that homebuilding there did not cease to occur, and I am sure that businesses were forced to adapt and develope systems that complied to this new law and were as cost effective as possible. Shortfuses addresses the issue of building more energy efficient rules as being strictly economical ones, whereas I see the issue as a social one. We are trashing the planet, wheteher he/she elects to believe so or not. Sometimes folks have to SACRAFICE some money and/or liberty to make real improvements. Look at World War Two. Folks had to ration gas,food and recycle metals to help the war effort. Civil liberties were curtailed temporarily. This was all done with a common goal and with the intent of overcoming a commonly shared threat. It seems to me that we should focus on working together to come up with viable cooperative goals and standards as opposed to having the ME mentality. So I pollute, so I consume personally more than 20 Africans do on a daily basis, so I waste land in my posh housing development. It's all about me ...RIGHT?????

No it's about me, it's about the pursuit of life,liberty and happiness.That is what our gov't should insure. Individual choice.That is what this great nation was founded on. It's by no means perfect,but it's the best model there is. The freedom for one to have as much or as little as one wants,we are afforded that right to pursue. That is what people from all over this planet come here legally and illegally for,that oppurtunity to have a shot what most Americans have never dreamed about even though it's right in front of them to grasp,what a cryin shame.

If a man wants to live in a mansion he should be able to,if a man wants to live in a 80 year old house he should be able to,if a man wants to live in a trailer he should be able to. The gov't should not tell him that he should have those squirelly light bulbs that contain mercury,his toilet should flush 3.5 gallons of water, his insulation should be this thick or his frig should only use this much power,stay out of my house government. Let me choose what I want,that is my liberty to choose,not their's. They already take more of my income,than I spend on housing and heating and cooling combined! ,now you want them in my house?

I guess we have different views about this great land that we live in.

At who's expense? Our Children?? Our children's children??? Our grandchildren's children???!

Wholewheat is exactly right.. The 'ME' mentality is precisely why there needs to be laws to push the uneducated, selfish, and greedy of our public in the right direction! How much you pay in taxes really has nothing to do with doing the right thing.. conserving the resources of our planet?! You're going to pay those taxes in any case but maybe it could go to education instead.

While I was growing up my family really didn't recycle. I had no concept of the impact I was having on the planet because I was young and unknowledgeable about the subject. It wasn't until our state government passed a law to force us to recycle plastic, paper, & metal that we started to recycle. Ok.. At first it seemed like a hassle, but then it occurred to me. If there is anything I can do to help minimize my negative impact on our planet, why shouldn't I do it? And now (several years later of course) I am actively supporting several worthy causes. We do have a different view about this great land.. It's not always about me! Not even close..

Short--

To put it another way.

I make it a law that you have to recycle your plastic 2 litter bottles of Colt 45 and all of those Mickey Big mouth bottles sitting in your garage. Because I make that law and start enforcing the law more "Raw Materials" are generated for the industry and as such you see a gradual decline in the cost of your plastic 2 Litter bottles of Jagermeister. Capitalism is allowed to thrive and prosper because I tell you to recycle your booze bottles. Those shell casings from your AR-15? I make it mandetory that you reload the casings or recycle them at the local police dept because the copper is valueable and making your bullets are costing Americans millions because it's taking away copper from other areas that need it as well which results in higher prices for the products that the copper is used in. Now These are all laws that fly in your face as things that are allowing government into your life and lets it dictate to you what you should or should not do... But because I make you do it it decreases your costs in other areas. Including the costs of .223 bullet for your M-16. So are you willing to let a couple of laws dictate to you so that you can benefit in other areas?

I notice that Urban ask's me at whose cost,are children are children's children? I here no voices on this forum about the wastefull spending that Barrack Hussein Obama is racking up. I read his energy bill that was posted on this forum the other night,he is spending and wasting more than all of our presidents COMBINED. Yet not one peep on this waste. You see guys,when it comes to BIG GOV"T you don't care,it's always greedy business',greedy people,flat screen tv's,big houses,suv's. You never look at what you endorse to rule our lives with as wastefull. Have you ever seen what is wasted by our government? You don't care,you turn a blind eye and a deaf ear.

As I told you both in my last post, I PAY THE GOVERNMENT IN TAXES MORE THAN I SPEND FOR MY HOUSING AND FOR HEATING AND COOLING IT. What do I get for that? A post office that is 51 billion dollars in the whole, a social security system that is going bankrupt,medicare and medicade that are broke,cash for clunkers, regulation after regulation and you guys want to give them more control over our lives with more regulation,thats insane. Would the gov't allow a BIG BUSINESS THAT YOU GUYS HATE SO MUCH GET AWAY WITH SOMETHING LIKE THIS? I think not,but it's the gov't to you guys and it can do no wrong now,can it? It's just the greedy man trying to make a decent living for his family and trying to provide the best he can without a gov't handout,he is the greedy bastard using up all the resources in the world.

Some day after we are long gone,and our childrens children are here,they are going to want the pursuit of life,liberty and happiness. Oh yeah baby,they will have all the recycled plastic,glass,drive electric cars and all that crap,but they will not have the most important thing in life........freedom,thanks to you giving our freedom away for "material things"like plastic,copper,aluminum,brass,glass and all of the other material things that you green people COVET. It works both ways,doesn't it?( Some covet money,houses, cars )Most of all you covet the earth,isn't that something material also?

I'm going to use what the Good Lord put here.

I'm LOST... I thought verdE asked at what cost... BUT HEY I can't make sense of half of what Short says. Oh well I guess I'll just go back to my hugging tree.

Shorty.. Why do you keep bringing up the same issues?? Many of us 'Greenecks' feel the same way as you in regards to government overspending and general wastefulness. Maybe you should consider that your way of be a voice for the green community and stop thinking we're all out to get you. There will always be some people that disagree but take a minute, or two, to find out who WE are before making blanket statements about ME!

And maybe you can try to be a little less self-righteous while you're at it.